Conversation
Notices
-
Temporary Marjolein (mk)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 00:50:47 CET Temporary Marjolein And then there's this: 'The end of Twitter' http://www.newyorker.com/tech/elements/the-end-of-twitter?ref=webdesignernews.com good or bad news? - mcscx2old is still alive (famous last words) repeated this.
-
Bob Jonkman (bobjonkman2)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 02:39:00 CET Bob Jonkman @mk I think that entire article has it wrong. User base growth is the wrong metric for success. Heck, even financial growth is the wrong metric for success. Look at most !GNUsocial instances, successful without any revenue at all. Of course, Twitter's investors may not think so, but I'm not one of them. abjectio likes this. -
lnxw48 (Linux Walt) (lnxw48)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 02:51:16 CET lnxw48 (Linux Walt) @mk @bobjonkman2 User base growth is very much a wrong metric for a service that supposedly consists primarily of leaders and influencers. As for resizing from 140 characters to 10K, there's been evidence they've been considering upsizing for years, as SMS users switched to mobile apps. Without SMS, 140 char is archaic (though 10K is far too big for a stream-oriented service). inscius likes this. -
Michael Vogel (heluecht)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 07:47:25 CET Michael Vogel @mk "The end of twitter" will be when they abandon things like free api access so that users will be forced to use the original twitter application and their website. -
Heikø (ostfriese)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 10:07:35 CET Heikø @heluecht @mk they already limited API access to third Party Clients to force people using the official client. So the und nicht be just one corner ahead -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 10:11:50 CET Hiker @heluecht Twitter is "too big to fail". 300 million users are used to this service now. @mk @mk -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 10:56:29 CET Hiker @psyq123 Indeed you are right. But today a lot of companies, administration, government, politician and even police :-) are on twitter - it's "quite big" - I think. @heluecht @mk VegOs likes this. -
Heikø (ostfriese)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 11:20:02 CET Heikø @hikerus last time "to big to fail" was used gouvernments spent several billions to save some banks. So lease use that term carefully ;-) mcscx2old is still alive (famous last words) likes this. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 11:25:29 CET Hiker @ostfriese Oh - this term isn't reserved for bank crashes. When 300 million accounts are used to this service there must be a very very big problem when they all are willing to leave it - and I really hope that these 300 million accounts don't switch to !gnusocial -
التنينوكس (dragnucs)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 13:03:20 CET التنينوكس @hikerus @ostfriese Me, I hope they do. I'll just block those who I don't like and filter content based on keywords and tools used to publish. mcscx2old is still alive (famous last words) likes this. -
lnxw48 (Linux Walt) (lnxw48)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 13:54:03 CET lnxw48 (Linux Walt) @benfell @mk @heluecht @hikerus @dragnucs It is definitely true that I can barely stand to use !Twitter's service any more. It is also true that their focus on advertising revenue is causing them to gradually chase away the 3rd-party clients that made the service usable when they went all javascripty. I just don't think the article addresses T's real problems in its rush to hype "the end of Twitter" -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 14:47:05 CET simsa0 In what sense are "most" GNUSocial instances" "successful"?
I see :
• a monoculture of topics (& no, it cannot be changed by introducing other topics on your own; people trying this most of the time leave b/c of lack of adequate response)
• usability so complex and impenetrable that it mostly attracts only tech minded people (federation is for geeks, not for laypersons)
• many people coming from but then returning to Twitter (b/c of both aforementioned points?)
If you understand "successful" as meaning the vividness of conversations, the kindness in support for newbies, the wisecracking, then I very much agree.
But if you understand "successful" as referring to the fact that most instances happen to survive, that, in fact, the fediverse keeps existing as a pocket universe, then I find this not quite enough. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 14:55:26 CET Hiker @simsa0
First point: That is not true. You can start a queet at any time with any topic
Second point: It's really no complex - but it is not Twitter - so you have to uncerstand the difference. If you think !Gnusocial is Twitter, you are wrong.
My question: How long are you here?
@bobjonkman2 -
Bob Jonkman (bobjonkman2)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 18:19:59 CET Bob Jonkman As long as they set up their own instances I welcome all 300 million users of #Twitter to !GNUsocial Nicolas Maia likes this. -
Bob Jonkman (bobjonkman2)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 18:31:48 CET Bob Jonkman As long as they set up their own instances I welcome all 300 million users of #Twitter to !GNUsocial -
Bob Jonkman (bobjonkman2)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 19:02:34 CET Bob Jonkman I find !GNUsocial successful because it works for me. Having tech-oriented conversations actually makes GNUsocial more successful for me than #Twitter -- compare the hashtag #LaTeX on the two services and see the difference. And there are plenty of non-tech topics on other GNUsocial instances, see http://rainbowdash.net/ for example. Also, I don't see GNUsocial being any more complicated to use than Twitter. Using the WebUI on GNUsocial insulates the average user from the technical specifications of #Federation. True, people running their own instance need a bit more technical know-how. But at the GNUsocial demo at the #Linux conference yesterday someone said that the Federation and scalability was nice, but she was *really* impressed that a full microblogging site could be set up in half an hour. GNUsocial is different from Twitter, and so its success is measured differently too. mmn and Benedikt Geißler repeated this. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 19:22:00 CET Hiker @bobjonkman2 Oh dear - 300 Million new servers running around the clock... -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 19:31:33 CET Hiker @kat A good question - to save energy... -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 19:51:50 CET Hiker @kat So an one-user-instance isn't quite useful from this point... -
mmn (mmn)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 21:42:17 CET mmn @bobjonkman2 I especially like https://rainbowdash.net as an example of the larger diversity than just the !foss community using !gnusocial (or in their case actually StatusNet) Roland Häder and mcscx like this. -
deprecated_nds (oldnds)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 21:45:03 CET deprecated_nds wowzers, had not seen that. do they federate? -
VegOs (vegos)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 22:07:53 CET VegOs I do not see much NGOs or science here, so Twitter still is inevitable, if you look for such news. There are also activist* from war regions and expats on Twitter and not on NGUsocial. Even Bellingcat isn't on GNUsocial though they appreciate open source tools https://www.bellingcat.com/about/
*Those activist are on Twitter at least and they might have other problems than thinking about alternative social networks. But #Neda (during Iranian Green Revolution) was a stupid hype - nobody on Twitter learned from. People still like to have the news in primetime rather than looking for it. I also think, GNUsocial users are not that better.
Imagine Greenpeace or Amnesty International running their own instance. Who else should propagate alternatives to the masses? But they only think in marketing terms and biggest reach. I try to suggest it, when I have contact to them. I even have an email template for that purpose. -
mmn (mmn)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 22:08:58 CET mmn @nds Indeed they do. They're a pretty long-lived community! From the identi.ca days before the pumpocalypse even. mcscx and deprecated_nds like this. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 23:01:54 CET simsa0 ad 1) Of course you can start anything w/ any post. Didn't deny that. But how comes many such topics never last (e.g., poetry, dance …). I saw several people, e.g., composers or religious people quit after a while. So perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that.
ad 2) To say GS is not T is fine, but explaining the difference is rather hard and involves technicalities (not necessarily programming stuff) that are confusing for laypersons w/o interest in geek stuff (esp. re: federation & conversations across instances). Saw a lot of such question on Quitter, and people leaving after a short while.
I've been on Identica since 2011, on Quitter since autumn 2014, on MFD since mid 2015. Why are you asking? -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 23:32:05 CET simsa0 Your criterion for GNUsocial being "successful" seems to be that "it works for you". Well, I do believe that for tech people GS is a useful tool, all fine and beautiful, and not more complex than Twitter. But for a layperson w/o technical skills who comes to GS and leaves again pretty soon? Who experiences odd behaviour or confusing concepts regardless of how much polished UIs try to shield him / her from the intricacies of federation and conversations across instances? "Works for me", i.e., usefulness, is a very individual thing, and I don't see how that can be a "metric" of "successful". -
simsa01 (simsa01)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 23:37:02 CET simsa01 @hikerus I suggest you help out here http://qttr.at/147b :-) -
simsa01 (simsa01)'s status on Sunday, 31-Jan-2016 23:41:08 CET simsa01 @bobjonkman2 Wasn't it you who keeps having trouble w/ his instance? ;-) And you want others to go through that same ordeal? Better not. ;-) -
VegOs (vegos)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 00:12:43 CET VegOs Hi Hosh, you still here, that's nice. You may also have a look at Twister, but upgrade first. I was astonished by Diaspora. There is a lot of stuff now, but also a lot of shit, which I can handle better on Twitter (by blocking...). Is there content on Redmatrix? -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 00:18:48 CET simsa0 Correction: I've been on Quitter since Jul 2013, on MFD since Dec 2014; Identica since early 2010 … -
Bob Jonkman (bobjonkman2)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 01:52:08 CET Bob Jonkman It's my server that's having trouble. My !GNUsocial instance is merely a victim. Roland Häder and mcscx like this. -
Lohan G (lohang)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 03:20:00 CET Lohan G @simsa0 2) In the early days I too got frustrated by my lack of technical skills and hearing what the others discuss here about !GNUsocial itself. They were having a good time figuring out how to fix various issues and developing the future !fediverse . But their role was VITAL. It still is. Having people with technical skills (developers and other free software geeks) is vital for a project like !GNUsocial to become a success. "Laypeople" who are nurtured by centralized services cannot produce this vision in the early stages. A deep understanding of the nature of the Internet, combined with necessary technical skills and a certain political will to go against all sorts of walled gardens.... where did those come from?
3) Of course it has to evolve. More non-tech people should be able to use this. They are not here not because GNUsocial is "difficult". It's the "network". All of their friends, news sites, organizations etc are still there inside the walled garden!
@bobjonkman2mcscx likes this.gian repeated this. -
simsa01 (simsa01)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 06:46:28 CET simsa01 @bobjonkman2 Does that really change things? If people can't maintain their servers, they can't run their instance. Nothing for a layperson. -
zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 06:55:54 CET zoowar Most people can't maintain a more complex piece of software, the operating system. This doesn't stop them from running their own. mcscx likes this. -
Cyber Killer Ⓐ (cyberkiller)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 07:33:53 CET Cyber Killer Ⓐ @simsa0 !GNUsocial has complex usability? What are you smoking? It's the same as twitter, +extra features; it even uses the same client apps -
Yuri Volkov (yvolk)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 08:00:06 CET Yuri Volkov @lohang Listing these "features" you are actually confirming what @simsa0 wrote: GNU social really has something that cannot be found in networks with millions of users. But in order to be a "success" GNU Social needs to have a community of at least some minimum size. I mean the size, which allows it to have good enough software and hosting services.
Do it have such minimum now? I don't know, but this is a slowly increasing number of current AndStatus users (the data, which is available for me...), which indirectly shows me that GNU Social community grows...
?!
@mk @bobjonkman2 @mmn @mcscxclacke likes this.Temporary Marjolein and clacke repeated this. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 08:33:33 CET Hiker @simsa01 You will find every time somebody who finds something Scheisse. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 08:40:08 CET Hiker @simsa0
1) !Gnusocial is the technical platform. The content is given by users. So when "poetry, dance" isn't discussed further, this is really not the fault of !gnusocial. Politics and religion are not very good topics for social media platforms.
2) If people are not willing to learn something new and if they think !gnusocial is exactly a copy of twitter then this isn't the fault of !gnusocial.
Nobody is forced to come to !gnusocial - everybody is free to choose the platform.mcscx repeated this. -
VegOs (vegos)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 10:19:18 CET VegOs Is there a kind of public timeline from Redmatrix? I saw your account. -
VegOs (vegos)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 10:50:17 CET VegOs THW, ... "I don't like Twister. I'm not in control of my stuff there and it remains on the web forever". - May I quote that for the Twister folks? It's sad to read, because it should keep away the bad guys, not the good! We discussed the idea of a versioning system to edit twists. Can't find it on Github again. If I do, I send it to you. -
VegOs (vegos)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 12:38:48 CET VegOs Talking about yes, but where are the sources from outside? Are NGOs, science or advocating groups here? Of course I can get all their news from their RSS feeds, I channel some of them to Twister, I also see some feeds here, but how to find new sources to subscribe? For this Twitter is great, even if it is big corporate shit. -
deprecated_nds (oldnds)'s status on Monday, 01-Feb-2016 17:15:12 CET deprecated_nds @cyberkiller @simsa0 @bobjonkman2 I think twitter dumped the API which GS incorporates years ago, so "same client apps" is a bit of a stretch ;-) -
deprecated_nds (oldnds)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 14:52:19 CET deprecated_nds @cyberkiller I'd agree, but there are apps which use the new API which don't serve ads, like rainbowstreams for example -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 22:46:15 CET simsa0 ad 1) IMO and experience of your dents I'd rather call you exceptional w/ regard to the technical skills … at least in comparison to non-geeks.
But as the set up of an instance requires (basic) understanding of how to run a webserver and of MySQL -- c.f. http://is.gd/MhS1uU and http://is.gd/9uWu7T -- then this is more than an average user can show. Of course, w/ dedication you can learn everything, and this was never in doubt, but to suggest (like many here seem to do) that setting up and maintaining instances are pretty easy seems a stark exaggeration. OTOH just read how often the admins of instances talk to each other how notes are missing and aren't federated, how remote following doesn't work etc -- and how they have *no* clue why this happens. Do you expect laypersons to be able to play on that level?
So, even if tinkering w/ your own instance may be easy and pleasant, working out the *interplay* of instances far exceeds the knowledge of someone coming from Twitter and who is not already part of the club. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 22:59:12 CET simsa0 ad 2) That sounds like an ignoratio elenchi, as the role of technical capable people tinkering and thereby building something like the fediverse was not the issue. More important seems your next point:
ad 3) You claim that people are not here b/c GS is "difficult" but because their "network" isn't here. Well, I don't see why not to say: the "network isn't here b/c GS and the fediverse are too "difficult". At least on a single containing instance like Twitter people don't experience that their notes get lost in federation or due to some other hickup.
But in a sense you're right as the case of the famous Spanish woman indicates who came to Quitter in January 2015 and brought w/ her 3.000 new users. When she left, most of those new accounts went dormant. But that rather seems to indicate that you need a critical mass of people for a social platform to begin to fly and that GS and the federation will not reach that critical number. And one reason for that, IMO, is a stumbling federation process. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:19:48 CET simsa0 I find this post of yours the most important one as it brings the discussion back to its beginning -- what are criteria for "success" when it comes to GS? @bobjonkman2 said "It works for me", and that is as subjective and uninformative as it can be. It works for him, fine, and it *didn't* "work" for 3,000 Spanish speaking people who left Quitter in early 2015.
You make some interesting points:
a) "owning my data" -- if you don't self-host I think that's a pipe dream even in FLOSS;
b) one may run one's own instance -- that may be interesting but is it an aspect of "success"?
c) Is it FLOSS -- Open licenses are needed in order for federation to be even possible (pretty much like Wikipedia needs open licenses for the mash up of content donation). So it is a necessary condition (or: evil ;-), but is that a sign of "success"? Not for me.
d) Free expression - you won't be shut down by a company, but at times shouted down or shunned (peer group pressure). (On Twitter you can go somewhere else, in the federation you're lost.)
>> -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:20:07 CET simsa0 >>
e) does it provide a better interface -- as long as there is no hierarchical display of conversations, it's as bad as Twitter.
I don't find technical or structural features to be criteria of successful. I already pointed to criteria where I find "successful" appropriate : the vividness of conversations, the kindness in support of newbies, the wisecracking. In those "soft" conditions I very much agree w/ calling GS "successful. But note that this completely independent of GS being FLOSS or not.mcscx likes this. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:20:22 CET simsa0 ^^ @lohang -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:24:01 CET simsa0 I agree w/ you on being skeptical on "layperson" as signifying a "fixed unit". I perhaps draw a different conclusion: The average user on GS, even a layperson dwelling in the fediverse, may have broader basis of technical knowledge than many who dwell, e.g., on Twitter. Likewise, willingness to learn etc. plays a role. But GS and the federation should be usable even for people who are not interested in tech stuff. I find GS to be wanting here, you seemingly not. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:28:14 CET simsa0 Mind your tone, will you? And don't confuse the usability of (and inside) *one* instance w/ that of the federation and the interchange between instances. You don't hear people on Twitter complain to the admin (or "inform" him/her) that notes went missing, that remote following doesn't work, that blocking doesn't work "properly" (depending on criteria). So look to individual cases and don't become victim of the Federation-FLOSS-propaganda. It doesn't work properly, just more or less. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:35:34 CET simsa0 Yes, I know this rethoric move: It's not the technology, it's never the technology (as it is "only" a tool), it's always the user. And if he can't get a hand on it, then screw him. This is, indeed and primarily, just a way to deflect criticism and stay inside one's beloved bubble. I won't press you to look outside of it. But I'd like to remind you that technology should adapt to people, not the other way around. (Except if one loves to be a cyborg.) -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:38:17 CET simsa0 Not really, as the "topic problem" was not why GS and federation has such a small user base, but in what sense can we say that GS and federation are "successful", and whether we can say that at all. -
simsa01 (simsa01)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:47:08 CET simsa01 @denommus Indeed. But in what sense? -
zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Tuesday, 02-Feb-2016 23:58:01 CET zoowar As I recall, those "3,000 Spanish speaking people" were sheep, following some famous blogger. They came because that blogger came. They left because that blogger left. It was not a reflection on the !fediverse only that the blogger's vanity drew them back to twitter to be appeased by meaningless follower counts. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 00:18:31 CET simsa0 Perhaps they were. So does that mean they were not worthy of the fediverse? Or that although they came b/c of some celebrity, the fediverse and GS were not able to attract many to stay? And what is w/ all the people who, being FLOSS fans and capable of running their own instances, still left the federation (or at least the federation of GS instances)? -
zoowar (zoowar)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 00:21:11 CET zoowar They were sheep, that is all I said about them. -
VegOs (vegos)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 03:47:58 CET VegOs If the bad guy see that the shit they post is eternal, they will think twice. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 08:38:43 CET Hiker @simsa0
1) Again: !gnusocial is made and supported by volunteers - they spend their time to develop, to maintain and to fix the software.
2) They respond quickly to questions and reports - they are very helpful and bugs are fixed quickly.
3) When you have to criticizes something - no problem, but it depends of the "sound" - that is life. 4) If you have questions or problems to solve, please ask - you will get an answer very soon.
5) If you have suggestions, please make them. 6) If you can't use or if you hate !gnusocial choose an other platform.Bernhard M. likes this. -
Hiker (hikerus)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 09:16:58 CET Hiker @cyberkiller Seems that every platform has to have its troublemaker :-) @simsa0 -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 18:08:19 CET simsa0 The "federation problem" is known for years, and it is not fixed … -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 18:27:22 CET simsa0 ad 1) Yes, it is done by volunteers, like it's volunteers (like me) who test, write bug reports and write FAQs.
ad 2) Never disputed that. Although a lot of "bugs" are not fixed quickly but live on for years.
ad 3) My specific critiques have been raised by many, not just me. Esp. the "federation problem", the issues w/ remote following and the blocking don't seem to get "fixed".
ad 4) I know that. That's why I appreciate @mcscx 's efforts. w/o him GS would be a wasteland. It's mostly him who does the support for newbies, in the whole fediverse ! (Or did you recently join the support of newbies?)
ad 5) How can I make technical suggestion if I am not a professional FLOSS loving geek? Did you even read the thread and its topics? (For your reminder: The main topic was in what sense one can say that GS is "successful", not what is "wrong" w/ GS.)
ad 6) I can use GS and I don't "hate" GS. What makes you think that? I just don't think it is very easy or comfortable to use for those not willing to spend their whole lives w/ FLOSS and coding. -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 18:29:00 CET simsa0 In what sense do you think I am a troublemaker? -
simsa0 (simsa0)'s status on Wednesday, 03-Feb-2016 19:37:18 CET simsa0 Do you mean «e) does it provide a better interface -- as long as there is no hierarchical display of conversations, it's as bad as Twitter.»?
If so, it's about the indented presentation of notes and replies, cf. http://skilledtests.com/wiki/images/0/0d/Hierarchical_threads.png